> In this scenario the macOS firewall does not seem to function correctly and is disregarding firewall rules ... Some examples of apps that do this are Apple’s own apps and services since macOS 14.6, up until a recent 15.1 beta.
This is not new - every time I update macOS, some of the system settings are changed to default including some in the firewall. And I have to painstakingly go through all of it and change it. Also, the few times I've reinstalled or updated macOS, I've always noticed that it takes longer for the installation if your system has access to the internet - so now I've made it a practice to switch of the router while installing or updating macOS or ios. (With all the AI bullshit being integrated everywhere in Windows, macOS and Android etc., I expect this kind of "offloading" of personal data, and downloading of data, to / from AI servers to keep increasing, especially during updates, to "prepare" for the new AI features in the newer OS updates. No internet means the installer is forced to skip it for later, saving you some valuable time, and hopefully you get to change the default setting before it starts up again. Whatever the claims of AI processing done on the Mac or iDevices itself, some "offloading" to their servers, will still happen, especially if the default settings - which you can change only after the OS is installed - also enables analytics and data collection.)
it also leaks the audio of tabs before logging in.
Even though I had disabled all 'restore' applications features, macos sometimes decides to 'start' browsers BEFORE logging in after a restart AND those start auto-playing audio from whatever was paused before the reboot (or many days before).
Since then I went rather deep disabling that feature, but I never trusted it.
They want their TCP/IP stack and safari browser hot and ready for their demanders of instant gratification.
In the long run, they barter this goodwill for "Safari is shit" credit until they and Google force the internet until a browser-turned App-Play-Store war.
Both companies win, and can blame the other company - all while incentivising anti-competition behavior and benefiting from their own organizational, yet altruistic, self-interests happening to coincidentally collude in similar, yet distinctly more complicated cases of creating monopolies spanning multiple domains.
The internet was captured, gamified, commoditized, and vertically integrated into a handful of giga-Corps.
your mobile devices are essentially tracking devices you are addicted to, and the government is too interested in these shiny grandiose things and their use in facilitating government functions without any real consequence, they fail to see the systematic risks that they themselves have allowed to proliferate by not enforcing stricter laws for systematically - exploitable intersections of law, technology, and business.
>They want their TCP/IP stack and safari browser hot and ready for their demanders of instant gratification.
Having short startup times is bad now? ...because of "instant gratification"? The rest of your rant might make sense in the broader context of what big tech is doing, but bringing it up in this thread and implying that it's part of a conspiracy where "The internet was captured, gamified, commoditized, and vertically integrated into a handful of giga-Corps" is unhinged.
The differences between governments and megacorps are dwindling and the two are becoming much more alike one another. We already live in global technofeudalism.
Alas, no. By and large, governments are still vastly less competent than multinational corporations. MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
> By and large, governments are still vastly less competent than multinational corporations
Is this something you know firsthand or something you think you know because a huge amount of money has gone into spreading that message for political purposes? Anyone who’s worked for or with a multi-national knows that they’re hardly as efficient as the marketing would have you believe, and anyone who’s looked at libertarian media knows that it’s almost entirely funded by rich people seeking tax & regulatory reductions, banking on you confusing their interests with your own.
this. also any profit margins sure are a "tax" in that comparison. Only you don't even get a public service for it, however bad it might be. For taxes, at least some of them are used for public services.
I never got this sentiment. Corporations as viewed from the inside are wildly incompetent—and that's before you consider profit inefficiency. I suspect this would be a lot more obvious if it weren't for the last seventy years of intentionally hampering government from competing with the market players directly. Once a product hits enshittification it benefits everyone (but shareholders, who contribute nothing to society) to nationalize the production and provide it at zero margin.
>MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
yeah, because the only kid bigger, told them to knock it off, as to not hamper their own racket.
If you think a mega-corp won't go AWOL and attempt a Banana Republic/Dutch East India Company again, but with more proxies, lawyers, SAM's, and corrupt officials to "YAS" them into integration, then you really haven't been paying attention to what globalization is really about.
The US had to ask for money back from the oil barons.
Bezos/Musk/Zuck/{untold billionaires} will have much better bargaining chips when they possess the monopoly on surveillance, money, and influence, and have proxy chairs at the U.N.
And I bet those countries would be better run in every way.
You are "forced to pay taxes" to have schools and roads and rescue services and law and everything else that makes the United States still a mostly habitable place to live.
Corporations do not force you to pay taxes YET. When the corporations get in total control and you cannot even vote just wait to see what a slave you are.
> MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
MNCs are like local governments levying property taxes.
e.g. you need a phone much like you have to live somewhere. Your "Tech Government" is determined by a highly constrained choice like your local civil government is determined by your zip code. Maybe you can move at great disruption and cost but it's only to the jurisdiction of another government and some variation of autocratic laws and taxes.
However, you have no vote and there is no pretence at serving your interests. You are not a citizen but cattle to be farmed... just maximal exploitation to please the mighty Mammon.
>"they fail to see the systematic risks"
Or they also fail at providing a solution.
Apple has no incentive to improve Safari. "It just works" is what their cultists paid to have the honor to parrot, and they enjoy the majority of web market share of people with actual wages and disposable income. That's why the sell culture, not their people's data (directly, yet).
Since it's not "Safari" that's broken (since iPhones cost a lot of money, they cant break), the users will lie blame at the fault of the web developers, since they had gotten cozy within the comfortable, flexible, expected behaviors of Chrome, having enjoyed a hiatus from IE11 EOL pollyfills and jquery.
Apple then made it easier to roll out an app than to grapple with the pitfalls, nuances, foot-guns, and gabbling documentation that Safari has carefully mal-compiled to shepherd both developers and their users into the Walled Garden.
It's just the browser wars, but with higher stakes. And Microsoft already won.
If you’re referring to people as “cultists”, consider that your point might not be as strong as you think. If you have a non-emotional argument about a browser, try making it with logic and data rather than emotion. For example, demonstrate awareness of where the browsers rank on the features which web developers really need (Google’s devrel team likes to highlight PWA features almost nobody uses even on Chrome) and show why the “walled garden” metaphor applies more to a niche browser than the dominant one by a large margin.
macOS sends a "pause" signal to all players when it sleeps, and any application which can handle that won't be playing any audio when the system wakes up. So if your audio continues the moment you open the lid, please file a bug report for that application.
That's PowerNap. Depending on your settings, your Mac wakes up briefly to check e-mails, updates and sleeps again. Normally it happens only during charging, but you can enable on battery power or disable it completely.
Bluetooth and wireless radios stay on for a longer while because to keep everything connected if you are moving from room to room at home or at work, also it's made possible because all radios are higher end models with their independent processors.
That’s an unfair characterisation. It’s just restoring windows, some of which happen to be browser windows, which then load a website with auto-playing video or audio that (unsurprisingly) starts playing. No one is selling it as a feature to “play sound when waking up from sleep”. I bet that if you configured the browser to never auto-play, this wouldn’t happen.
To clarify, because commenters seem to be misunderstanding my point: I’m not defending the functionality, I think it’s wrong. My sole quarrel is with the characterisation that Apple is selling it as a feature, when they’re not. Let’s not ascribe wrong (or at best unknown) motivations to behaviours, as that makes is less likely they will be fixed.
No one is selling it as a feature, no, but I would still consider it an OS level bug, and a security one at that. Focusing on the browser is a step away from the point: if I'm not signed in, I don't want sound playing from any app⁰.
I've had Windows do something similar, a media player deciding to unpause when coming up from hibernate (this was before Windows seemingly broke hibernate) and for some reason being at full volume, and it was a fair few seconds before I was able to login, get to that app, and hit pause again. It didn't leak anything sensitive (Hey everyone, this guy watches Stargate!) but it made me “that guy we all hate” on the train… Again it is the app that is responsible for making the sound, but I think at that point the OS shouldn't let it.
<glasses tint="rose">I miss the times when laptops had physical volume sliders…</galsses>
To me this has the feeling of making a mountain out of a molehill, but I don't think there is any denying that the molehill itself exists and to others it might be more than the very minor irritation it could be to me.
> I bet that if you configured the browser to never auto-play, this wouldn’t happen.
I bet that no matter how tightly you try to control that, some advertiser will find a way to override it to make sound play, and sods law says that will happen when you most want your waking laptop to be quiet. Blocking audio while not signed in at the OS level is a safer gate.
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[0] Actually, there is an exception there: if the machine has locked due to input inactivity, I want audio I'm listening to continue and notification pips to come through. There is a distinction between OS restarting (from [re]boot, wake, etc.) and local console not logged in due to input timeout, in how I'd prefer things to behave.
Yes, I understand, I have encountered that as well and I agree it shouldn’t happen.
My only quarrel is with the other user implying Apple is selling this as a feature. I have my fair share of criticism of Apple and other tech companies, but let’s please not let blind hate take over and dilute arguments.
The characterisation matters, yes. Because when you ascribe wrong motivations out of perceived spite, it makes it less likely the people who can fix it want to do so.
I’m not defending the bug, I’m replying to the post below it.
I do not think the user particularly cares whether it was an intentional feature or an unfortunate byproduct of features and bugs when they open a laptop in a classroom or a meeting and it starts blaring the music they listened to before closing it.
Some areas of expertise require so much work, it nearly prevents the student from learning to appreciate the intent, the craft, itself.
It's like being literally unable to dog
Opening a laptop, even if the last activity was blaring obnoxious carnival music, should _allow_, not _demand_ the user to resume their last function - which was explicitly to _pause_ the laptop, by closing the lid.
If I close the lid, I am done with the computer and video; it is obvious that I am done right now - the OS/browser would be alerted of LidDown, and I would expect the OS to tell the browser to Pause (via some new javascript media API that I am sure exists), pagefile ram if possible/needed, and dump all console.logs to a temp directory, in case restarting from hibernation goes awry.
If I open the lid, I am attempting to use the computer. The previous quest can be pertinent or moot; but it would be oddly assumptive (against the ethos of general computing) to _automagically_ resume (especially a paused) playback just from first button press - at least give me the option to explore, format, or rename the thing.
The thread shouldn't pause with AudioContext frozen in an "active" status. The thread unpauses, the AudioContext resumes before the next frame (whever thatll be) comes to remember to pause it.
Windows 7 with Youtube can figure out - even with hibernation breaking audio/bluetooth on windows - then surely the most expensive company and OS 15 years later has made an inkling of progress (if that was ever their intention)
Damn, how is that possible? I imagine you have FileVault enabled, and if so this sounds like some security bypass?
I was under the impression that until you provide the password after a reboot, the system should know nothing about you as all user data should be encrypted, so it should not know what apps you had open before reboot let alone start playing sound.
Somewhat loosely related, but I have something similar with the iPhone browser. Where opening the browser will shortly show the last page I had open (even I carefully closed it before closing the browser). Even if it never got me into trouble, I found that annoying as s. And could potentially make problems.
How is this possible? I wouldn’t have thought that it could open your applications without you logging in? How does it know who you are? How does it know which applications to open? If you’re not logged in yet, is is just logging in for you automatically but not showing you?
Seems like a huge security bug. This isn’t being exploited? Wild stuff.
Reminds me of when you could hear a FaceTime call coming through but if you chose not to answer it, no worries! Your iPhone will turn on your camera anyway! And send your video to the calling party!
The only explanation is that you restarted whilst having the "Open All Previous Application" checkbox enabled. And yes it will launch processes after you have logged in but before the Desktop is shown.
Either that you or you have some launch daemon that is opening a browser.
I've had similar experiences with MacOS. I uncheck that goddamn box all the time and still it relaunches previously opened applications half the time. If my application or computer crashes, I don't want the crashy application to open up at startup again. MacOS isn't perfect.
OSX is particularly lousy with remembering user preferences and configuration. I quit using it after I grew sick of raging at it forgetting what applications want different files to open with. I've never had this sort of problem on Linux.
I’m very confident that it’s either this or the restore-after-crash feature that OP is seeing. I don’t think it’s anything specific to Safari, because I have never seen Safari opened before login when it’s not my default browser.
That said, there should probably be a checkbox in system settings to disable login “prewarming”.
The first boot after a macOS system update has long been bugged out. It launches a bunch of apps you didn’t even have open before updating, seems to be the 5-10 most recent apps you quit. Yes they were fully quit, yes I have the “resume” setting off. It also doesn’t do a resume, it launches them, i.e. tells them to create new windows, and it launches them before it finishes mounting disks, resulting in every update being followed by all my most used apps appearing out of nowhere and telling me all my config and data is gone. It doesn’t really matter, you just reboot again and you’re good, it’s just careless and makes the OS feel unstable. Maybe the firewall thing is unrelated, maybe it finally forces Apple to fix the bug, we’ll see.
Mhmm... A POSIX compliant OS which is bundled with a calibrated high gamut screen, low latency audio stack, and relatively high speed networking with good thread scheduling, great memory management and tremendous uptime numbers for a personal computer.
...a toy OS which becomes invisible most of the time for serious users indeed.
I prefer Linux over anything else, but let's be real.
Excellent reply. I hate windows viscerally, but I would also not call it toy. Neither Linux, FreeBSD, Windows (and many others) are toys. Linux, BTW, started as a toy, but is far from it now.
Linux on desktop has been ready for years now, it absolutely shreds apple and microsofts offerings, ubuntu desktop is about as schmick as it gets regardless of your views of the parent company.
Mac on the other hand is an absolute nightmare to administer for clients. Same with their phones. Printing from web browser on a Mac? Completely broken. Have to save everything to desktop and open it from there. It's an absolute joke. Wanna use your 7 year old Mac to browse the web? Oh wait you can't because the os blocks it. Legit joke of a product.
Can I ctrl-paste the contents of my phone's clipboard onto my Linux computer? How many hours would that take to set up? Because that works out of the box with Macs and iPhones. Pretty useful daily.
I had a look into KDE connect out of interest, but found it to be quite lacking in functionality for iOS. The limitations likely stem from Apple's locked down approach to their OS and security, but the limitations remain.
> Printing from web browser on a Mac? Completely broken.
Doing this more than a decade? Didn't see any brokenness to be honest.
> Wanna use your 7 year old Mac to browse the web? Oh wait you can't because the os blocks it.
Nope. My 2014 MBP is a happy camper and use it daily at home. No blocks whatsoever.
> Linux on desktop has been ready for years now, it absolutely shreds apple and microsofts offerings
That's true though. Laptop power management is not there yet, but I prefer Linux over anything else for the last ~15 years or so. I use Mac laptops because I like the hardware and see where another UNIX based OS is.
> Mac on the other hand is an absolute nightmare to administer for clients. Same with their phones.
I think Apple phones are relatively easy to mass-manage via Apple Configurator, but MDM is a totally different story in macOS. Glad that my machines are not managed.
Man printing is broken on macs I've had a handful of callouts for exactly that lately on a ramge of different macs.
Same with print from iphones. Broken, and when it breaks you get zero ways to chase whats going wrong. Meanwhile every other device on site have zero problems.
I literally spend a large portion of my days dealing with these problems for a variety of clients on a variety of sites. It's at a point with Apple where I just flat out refuse the work unless their a really special client. Atleast if I have a problem on a Microsoft device for business I can call support and get a phone back from a tech usually within 24 hours. Can't get that from apple.
Last absolute head scratcher was syncing multiple Gmail accounts with a variety of passwords and passkeys to a single iCalendar. Turns out passkeys overwrite more than one Gmails settings in ios back to just its email and nerf all the others. Hot tip for anyone doing this don't ever use passkeys for that setup if doing multiple accounts. Not sure if it was Googles end on how their passkey is set out or apples end on how it interprets it but it was a 2.5 hour nightmare.
I usually use my Macs with a fleet of printers from Xerox, Samsung and HP. Only the (archaic) Xerox needed a .ppd file from Xerox. The others are running with default drivers supplied with the system, and all work as first-class citizens, with all their features enabled (incl. the Xerox).
Same is true for iPhone/AirPrint. As long as the mDNS packets are unhindered in the network, and the printer has semi-decent AirPrint support, they work automagically. Again, Samsung and HP printers are networked and AirPrint enabled.
All any any devices (Linux / Windows / macOS / iOS / Android) on their respective networks can and do print without any drivers to these printers. They start printing instantly, with all features enabled, and honoring all options selected in the print dialog.
I have two Google accounts on my iPhone and Mac, but only one of them uses passkeys IIRC, and absolutely have no problems for now. Will look out for the scenario though, thanks.
> In this scenario the macOS firewall does not seem to function correctly and is disregarding firewall rules ... Some examples of apps that do this are Apple’s own apps and services since macOS 14.6, up until a recent 15.1 beta.
This is not new - every time I update macOS, some of the system settings are changed to default including some in the firewall. And I have to painstakingly go through all of it and change it. Also, the few times I've reinstalled or updated macOS, I've always noticed that it takes longer for the installation if your system has access to the internet - so now I've made it a practice to switch of the router while installing or updating macOS or ios. (With all the AI bullshit being integrated everywhere in Windows, macOS and Android etc., I expect this kind of "offloading" of personal data, and downloading of data, to / from AI servers to keep increasing, especially during updates, to "prepare" for the new AI features in the newer OS updates. No internet means the installer is forced to skip it for later, saving you some valuable time, and hopefully you get to change the default setting before it starts up again. Whatever the claims of AI processing done on the Mac or iDevices itself, some "offloading" to their servers, will still happen, especially if the default settings - which you can change only after the OS is installed - also enables analytics and data collection.)
(More here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26418809 and on this thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26303946 ).
it also leaks the audio of tabs before logging in.
Even though I had disabled all 'restore' applications features, macos sometimes decides to 'start' browsers BEFORE logging in after a restart AND those start auto-playing audio from whatever was paused before the reboot (or many days before).
Since then I went rather deep disabling that feature, but I never trusted it.
They want their TCP/IP stack and safari browser hot and ready for their demanders of instant gratification.
In the long run, they barter this goodwill for "Safari is shit" credit until they and Google force the internet until a browser-turned App-Play-Store war.
Both companies win, and can blame the other company - all while incentivising anti-competition behavior and benefiting from their own organizational, yet altruistic, self-interests happening to coincidentally collude in similar, yet distinctly more complicated cases of creating monopolies spanning multiple domains.
The internet was captured, gamified, commoditized, and vertically integrated into a handful of giga-Corps.
your mobile devices are essentially tracking devices you are addicted to, and the government is too interested in these shiny grandiose things and their use in facilitating government functions without any real consequence, they fail to see the systematic risks that they themselves have allowed to proliferate by not enforcing stricter laws for systematically - exploitable intersections of law, technology, and business.
>They want their TCP/IP stack and safari browser hot and ready for their demanders of instant gratification.
Having short startup times is bad now? ...because of "instant gratification"? The rest of your rant might make sense in the broader context of what big tech is doing, but bringing it up in this thread and implying that it's part of a conspiracy where "The internet was captured, gamified, commoditized, and vertically integrated into a handful of giga-Corps" is unhinged.
"they fail to see the systematic risks"
Or they also fail at providing a solution. Would you prefer diletantic government intervention in this area instead?
The differences between governments and megacorps are dwindling and the two are becoming much more alike one another. We already live in global technofeudalism.
Alas, no. By and large, governments are still vastly less competent than multinational corporations. MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
> By and large, governments are still vastly less competent than multinational corporations
Is this something you know firsthand or something you think you know because a huge amount of money has gone into spreading that message for political purposes? Anyone who’s worked for or with a multi-national knows that they’re hardly as efficient as the marketing would have you believe, and anyone who’s looked at libertarian media knows that it’s almost entirely funded by rich people seeking tax & regulatory reductions, banking on you confusing their interests with your own.
"MNC don't force you to pay taxes", well 30% fee on products bought, sorry "licensed", on their app stores seem like a tax to me
this. also any profit margins sure are a "tax" in that comparison. Only you don't even get a public service for it, however bad it might be. For taxes, at least some of them are used for public services.
Governments are adopting the international outreach of megacorps.
Megacorps are adopting the level of competence of governments.
I see no contradiction here.
I never got this sentiment. Corporations as viewed from the inside are wildly incompetent—and that's before you consider profit inefficiency. I suspect this would be a lot more obvious if it weren't for the last seventy years of intentionally hampering government from competing with the market players directly. Once a product hits enshittification it benefits everyone (but shareholders, who contribute nothing to society) to nationalize the production and provide it at zero margin.
>MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
yeah, because the only kid bigger, told them to knock it off, as to not hamper their own racket.
If you think a mega-corp won't go AWOL and attempt a Banana Republic/Dutch East India Company again, but with more proxies, lawyers, SAM's, and corrupt officials to "YAS" them into integration, then you really haven't been paying attention to what globalization is really about.
The US had to ask for money back from the oil barons.
Bezos/Musk/Zuck/{untold billionaires} will have much better bargaining chips when they possess the monopoly on surveillance, money, and influence, and have proxy chairs at the U.N.
And I bet those countries would be better run in every way.
You are "forced to pay taxes" to have schools and roads and rescue services and law and everything else that makes the United States still a mostly habitable place to live.
Corporations do not force you to pay taxes YET. When the corporations get in total control and you cannot even vote just wait to see what a slave you are.
> MNCs also don't force you to pay taxes or buy their products.
MNCs are like local governments levying property taxes.
e.g. you need a phone much like you have to live somewhere. Your "Tech Government" is determined by a highly constrained choice like your local civil government is determined by your zip code. Maybe you can move at great disruption and cost but it's only to the jurisdiction of another government and some variation of autocratic laws and taxes.
However, you have no vote and there is no pretence at serving your interests. You are not a citizen but cattle to be farmed... just maximal exploitation to please the mighty Mammon.
Since it's not "Safari" that's broken (since iPhones cost a lot of money, they cant break), the users will lie blame at the fault of the web developers, since they had gotten cozy within the comfortable, flexible, expected behaviors of Chrome, having enjoyed a hiatus from IE11 EOL pollyfills and jquery.
Apple then made it easier to roll out an app than to grapple with the pitfalls, nuances, foot-guns, and gabbling documentation that Safari has carefully mal-compiled to shepherd both developers and their users into the Walled Garden.
It's just the browser wars, but with higher stakes. And Microsoft already won.
If you’re referring to people as “cultists”, consider that your point might not be as strong as you think. If you have a non-emotional argument about a browser, try making it with logic and data rather than emotion. For example, demonstrate awareness of where the browsers rank on the features which web developers really need (Google’s devrel team likes to highlight PWA features almost nobody uses even on Chrome) and show why the “walled garden” metaphor applies more to a niche browser than the dominant one by a large margin.
I can’t think of anything I want less from a laptop than it playing sound when I open it… and yet apple bring it to me as though it’s a feature.
There are exactly zero situations where I would want my laptop be anything except fully muted when I open it.
Configurability is also out of fashion nowadays, so you'll get that behaviour and enjoy it.
Your applications should catch the signal and pause. Safari, Apple Music and Spotify handle this well. Firefox needs a bugfix.
macOS sends a "pause" signal to all players when it sleeps, and any application which can handle that won't be playing any audio when the system wakes up. So if your audio continues the moment you open the lid, please file a bug report for that application.
GP wrote nothing about sleep.
macOS sleeps the moment you close the lid, and wakes the moment you raise it a little. It's instantaneous, esp. ARM powered ones.
I've seen many situations where macos laptops with a closed lid continue to perform network tasks
That's PowerNap. Depending on your settings, your Mac wakes up briefly to check e-mails, updates and sleeps again. Normally it happens only during charging, but you can enable on battery power or disable it completely.
Bluetooth and wireless radios stay on for a longer while because to keep everything connected if you are moving from room to room at home or at work, also it's made possible because all radios are higher end models with their independent processors.
Sorry, mistook which post you were replying to.
Nah, no problems. Things happen. Have a nice day :)
That’s an unfair characterisation. It’s just restoring windows, some of which happen to be browser windows, which then load a website with auto-playing video or audio that (unsurprisingly) starts playing. No one is selling it as a feature to “play sound when waking up from sleep”. I bet that if you configured the browser to never auto-play, this wouldn’t happen.
To clarify, because commenters seem to be misunderstanding my point: I’m not defending the functionality, I think it’s wrong. My sole quarrel is with the characterisation that Apple is selling it as a feature, when they’re not. Let’s not ascribe wrong (or at best unknown) motivations to behaviours, as that makes is less likely they will be fixed.
No one is selling it as a feature, no, but I would still consider it an OS level bug, and a security one at that. Focusing on the browser is a step away from the point: if I'm not signed in, I don't want sound playing from any app⁰.
I've had Windows do something similar, a media player deciding to unpause when coming up from hibernate (this was before Windows seemingly broke hibernate) and for some reason being at full volume, and it was a fair few seconds before I was able to login, get to that app, and hit pause again. It didn't leak anything sensitive (Hey everyone, this guy watches Stargate!) but it made me “that guy we all hate” on the train… Again it is the app that is responsible for making the sound, but I think at that point the OS shouldn't let it.
<glasses tint="rose">I miss the times when laptops had physical volume sliders…</galsses>
To me this has the feeling of making a mountain out of a molehill, but I don't think there is any denying that the molehill itself exists and to others it might be more than the very minor irritation it could be to me.
> I bet that if you configured the browser to never auto-play, this wouldn’t happen.
I bet that no matter how tightly you try to control that, some advertiser will find a way to override it to make sound play, and sods law says that will happen when you most want your waking laptop to be quiet. Blocking audio while not signed in at the OS level is a safer gate.
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[0] Actually, there is an exception there: if the machine has locked due to input inactivity, I want audio I'm listening to continue and notification pips to come through. There is a distinction between OS restarting (from [re]boot, wake, etc.) and local console not logged in due to input timeout, in how I'd prefer things to behave.
> No one is selling it as a feature, no
That’s all I’m saying.
> but I would still consider it an OS level bug
I agree.
To clarify it restores windows AFTER a reboot, BEFORE i login.
What RIGHT does it have to create processes with a user BEFORE I authenticate to the machine ?
Yes, I understand, I have encountered that as well and I agree it shouldn’t happen.
My only quarrel is with the other user implying Apple is selling this as a feature. I have my fair share of criticism of Apple and other tech companies, but let’s please not let blind hate take over and dilute arguments.
Does it matter if the end result is that the browser plays audio before you've authenticated your user session?
The characterisation matters, yes. Because when you ascribe wrong motivations out of perceived spite, it makes it less likely the people who can fix it want to do so.
I’m not defending the bug, I’m replying to the post below it.
I do not think the user particularly cares whether it was an intentional feature or an unfortunate byproduct of features and bugs when they open a laptop in a classroom or a meeting and it starts blaring the music they listened to before closing it.
Some areas of expertise require so much work, it nearly prevents the student from learning to appreciate the intent, the craft, itself.
It's like being literally unable to dog
Opening a laptop, even if the last activity was blaring obnoxious carnival music, should _allow_, not _demand_ the user to resume their last function - which was explicitly to _pause_ the laptop, by closing the lid.
If I close the lid, I am done with the computer and video; it is obvious that I am done right now - the OS/browser would be alerted of LidDown, and I would expect the OS to tell the browser to Pause (via some new javascript media API that I am sure exists), pagefile ram if possible/needed, and dump all console.logs to a temp directory, in case restarting from hibernation goes awry.
If I open the lid, I am attempting to use the computer. The previous quest can be pertinent or moot; but it would be oddly assumptive (against the ethos of general computing) to _automagically_ resume (especially a paused) playback just from first button press - at least give me the option to explore, format, or rename the thing.
You're asking the OSes to actually implement proper session management and centralized leak controls?
It has never happened before...
The thread shouldn't pause with AudioContext frozen in an "active" status. The thread unpauses, the AudioContext resumes before the next frame (whever thatll be) comes to remember to pause it.
Windows 7 with Youtube can figure out - even with hibernation breaking audio/bluetooth on windows - then surely the most expensive company and OS 15 years later has made an inkling of progress (if that was ever their intention)
Damn, how is that possible? I imagine you have FileVault enabled, and if so this sounds like some security bypass?
I was under the impression that until you provide the password after a reboot, the system should know nothing about you as all user data should be encrypted, so it should not know what apps you had open before reboot let alone start playing sound.
What I don't understand is why browsers (in my case Brave) doesn't pause all playback after a restart?
Somewhat loosely related, but I have something similar with the iPhone browser. Where opening the browser will shortly show the last page I had open (even I carefully closed it before closing the browser). Even if it never got me into trouble, I found that annoying as s. And could potentially make problems.
FWIW, what you’re seeing is likely just the cached thumbnail that iOS creates for the app-switcher UI, not an interactive web session.
How is this possible? I wouldn’t have thought that it could open your applications without you logging in? How does it know who you are? How does it know which applications to open? If you’re not logged in yet, is is just logging in for you automatically but not showing you?
Seems like a huge security bug. This isn’t being exploited? Wild stuff.
Reminds me of when you could hear a FaceTime call coming through but if you chose not to answer it, no worries! Your iPhone will turn on your camera anyway! And send your video to the calling party!
Vast majority of all laptop and even phone usage is single user. They could literally be doing
if macbook_has_only_one_account():
preloadapps()
I have never heard of anyone with this issue.
The only explanation is that you restarted whilst having the "Open All Previous Application" checkbox enabled. And yes it will launch processes after you have logged in but before the Desktop is shown.
Either that you or you have some launch daemon that is opening a browser.
I also have this issue from time to time.
> The only explanation is that [...]
Please show some more imagination.
Maybe you should use your imagination and read the second part of what I wrote.
Which is that it could be a launch daemon. It's very common for third party apps to use their imagination and do dumb things on startup.
I've had similar experiences with MacOS. I uncheck that goddamn box all the time and still it relaunches previously opened applications half the time. If my application or computer crashes, I don't want the crashy application to open up at startup again. MacOS isn't perfect.
OSX is particularly lousy with remembering user preferences and configuration. I quit using it after I grew sick of raging at it forgetting what applications want different files to open with. I've never had this sort of problem on Linux.
In my experience, when filetype associations change under macOS it’s because some app I’ve used recently has made those changes without asking me.
I know some people are tired of all the prompts but I don’t think apps should be able to change those associations without first prompting the user.
I’m very confident that it’s either this or the restore-after-crash feature that OP is seeing. I don’t think it’s anything specific to Safari, because I have never seen Safari opened before login when it’s not my default browser.
That said, there should probably be a checkbox in system settings to disable login “prewarming”.
I had this issue, and something similar in my old iPhone. I'm sure there are other explanations, because yours is not it.
The first boot after a macOS system update has long been bugged out. It launches a bunch of apps you didn’t even have open before updating, seems to be the 5-10 most recent apps you quit. Yes they were fully quit, yes I have the “resume” setting off. It also doesn’t do a resume, it launches them, i.e. tells them to create new windows, and it launches them before it finishes mounting disks, resulting in every update being followed by all my most used apps appearing out of nowhere and telling me all my config and data is gone. It doesn’t really matter, you just reboot again and you’re good, it’s just careless and makes the OS feel unstable. Maybe the firewall thing is unrelated, maybe it finally forces Apple to fix the bug, we’ll see.
It seems to launch all the apps you had open when you pressed the "Update" button, even if that was 30 minutes before the installation began.
Ah, that is so annoying. It actually opened stuff from yesterday once.
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Mhmm... A POSIX compliant OS which is bundled with a calibrated high gamut screen, low latency audio stack, and relatively high speed networking with good thread scheduling, great memory management and tremendous uptime numbers for a personal computer.
...a toy OS which becomes invisible most of the time for serious users indeed.
I prefer Linux over anything else, but let's be real.
Excellent reply. I hate windows viscerally, but I would also not call it toy. Neither Linux, FreeBSD, Windows (and many others) are toys. Linux, BTW, started as a toy, but is far from it now.
is POSIX complicance relevant anymore?
I write everything to run on macOS and Linux, so yes. At least for me.
Well pack it up boys, Linux on the desktop is finally ready.
I have been using Linux Desktop for 2 decades. It has worked by and large fine. The freedom is amazing!
It has been for many years. At least for people who are inclined to have technical interest
Linux on desktop has been ready for years now, it absolutely shreds apple and microsofts offerings, ubuntu desktop is about as schmick as it gets regardless of your views of the parent company.
Mac on the other hand is an absolute nightmare to administer for clients. Same with their phones. Printing from web browser on a Mac? Completely broken. Have to save everything to desktop and open it from there. It's an absolute joke. Wanna use your 7 year old Mac to browse the web? Oh wait you can't because the os blocks it. Legit joke of a product.
Can I ctrl-paste the contents of my phone's clipboard onto my Linux computer? How many hours would that take to set up? Because that works out of the box with Macs and iPhones. Pretty useful daily.
Kde connect works fine most of the time to share clipboard, send files, etc
I had a look into KDE connect out of interest, but found it to be quite lacking in functionality for iOS. The limitations likely stem from Apple's locked down approach to their OS and security, but the limitations remain.
https://userbase.kde.org/KDEConnect#Missing_or_limited_featu...
It's quite easy with kdeconnect.
Except it requires VPN when not on the same LAN for some reason...
Yeah that's been easy for a few years now. Kdeconnect works great/it's been available on Linux since well before windows got it.
> Printing from web browser on a Mac? Completely broken.
Doing this more than a decade? Didn't see any brokenness to be honest.
> Wanna use your 7 year old Mac to browse the web? Oh wait you can't because the os blocks it.
Nope. My 2014 MBP is a happy camper and use it daily at home. No blocks whatsoever.
> Linux on desktop has been ready for years now, it absolutely shreds apple and microsofts offerings
That's true though. Laptop power management is not there yet, but I prefer Linux over anything else for the last ~15 years or so. I use Mac laptops because I like the hardware and see where another UNIX based OS is.
> Mac on the other hand is an absolute nightmare to administer for clients. Same with their phones.
I think Apple phones are relatively easy to mass-manage via Apple Configurator, but MDM is a totally different story in macOS. Glad that my machines are not managed.
Man printing is broken on macs I've had a handful of callouts for exactly that lately on a ramge of different macs.
Same with print from iphones. Broken, and when it breaks you get zero ways to chase whats going wrong. Meanwhile every other device on site have zero problems.
I literally spend a large portion of my days dealing with these problems for a variety of clients on a variety of sites. It's at a point with Apple where I just flat out refuse the work unless their a really special client. Atleast if I have a problem on a Microsoft device for business I can call support and get a phone back from a tech usually within 24 hours. Can't get that from apple.
Last absolute head scratcher was syncing multiple Gmail accounts with a variety of passwords and passkeys to a single iCalendar. Turns out passkeys overwrite more than one Gmails settings in ios back to just its email and nerf all the others. Hot tip for anyone doing this don't ever use passkeys for that setup if doing multiple accounts. Not sure if it was Googles end on how their passkey is set out or apples end on how it interprets it but it was a 2.5 hour nightmare.
I usually use my Macs with a fleet of printers from Xerox, Samsung and HP. Only the (archaic) Xerox needed a .ppd file from Xerox. The others are running with default drivers supplied with the system, and all work as first-class citizens, with all their features enabled (incl. the Xerox).
Same is true for iPhone/AirPrint. As long as the mDNS packets are unhindered in the network, and the printer has semi-decent AirPrint support, they work automagically. Again, Samsung and HP printers are networked and AirPrint enabled.
All any any devices (Linux / Windows / macOS / iOS / Android) on their respective networks can and do print without any drivers to these printers. They start printing instantly, with all features enabled, and honoring all options selected in the print dialog.
I have two Google accounts on my iPhone and Mac, but only one of them uses passkeys IIRC, and absolutely have no problems for now. Will look out for the scenario though, thanks.